Sunday, November 30, 2008

Unrealized reviews symposium

The One That Got Away

Prior to departing 1UP.com, I prepared two sections for a symposium that never got off the ground. Newsweek's N'Gai Croal, WhatTheyPlay.com's John Davison, and I agreed to generate questions for eight episodes:


Review Scores
Reader Backlash
Reviews in the Age of Social Media
Reviews in the Mainstream Media
Casual, Indie, and User-Generated Games
Review Ethics
Reviews vs. Criticism
Evolving the Review

Sadly, the symposium hasn't happened -- blame me if you must. Below are the questions I suggested for the Review Scores and Reviews vs. Criticism sections. In addition, I've attached a clip from an early email exchange on the topic.


Review Scores
Question 1: How much is on our minds before we begin playing any given game for review purposes? Will we imagine a range of probable scores that a heavily marketed, highly budgeted, and hugely anticipated game will get? What when the game is branded “budget” or is the work of a lesser-known, less-storied studio? If so, how closely have actual scores correlated with our assumptions?

Question 2: Ought reviewers settle on a score before, during, or after writing a review? How consistent are our practices with our prescriptions? Have we, for instance, revised a score after writing our reviews, even though we advocate against it, and if so, why?

Question 3: When possible, do we look at the scores that other critics give to the games that we're reviewing, as we review them? If so, are groupthink or iconoclasty potential problems?

Question 4: Often times we will have repeatedly played and/or previewed games in development prior to reviewing them. Does this familiarity with a particular game's developmental process influence the scores that we assign to the final product in the way that a professor will take into consideration her students' limitations and proven potential when she evaluates papers at the end of the semester?

Question 5: Review writing carries real consequence, especially among members of the enthusiast press. Once-warm PR people and game producers can become cold upon our publication of undesirable review scores, diminishing or eliminating our ability to secure subsequent interviews and access. Postmortem discussions and exclusive looks at the publisher and/or developer's forthcoming products are less likely. Conversely, a few publishers will permit us to post reviews before competitors, provided our review scores are favorable. Do such pressures produce a subliminal background or even enter our thoughts as we write reviews and assign scores?

Question 6: Is grade inflation an ongoing problem?

Question 7: Do scores determine our tone? Can a “3” encourage us to explain an aspect of a game in clearly negative terms where our attitude is actually less decided? Example: Game X's camera obscures the action, combat is irritatingly difficult, and “save” stations are few and far between. In our reviews, is Game X's plot, which we're still thinking through, more likely to become miserable than plain?

Question 8: Do scores encourage our readers to conduct a sort of text-to-number calculus where the two obviously negative statements in an otherwise positive-sounding review necessarily translate into every point deducted from the “10” that the game didn't get? Does this make reviews with high marks more likely to overlook fault, and reviews with low marks less likely to celebrate accomplishment?

Question 9: Which is more important to us, our scores or our copy? If the latter, have our responses revealed any inconsistencies between our attitudes and actions? Are we still convinced of the importance and power of scores?

Related suggestions for Ethics section:
Have we ever submitted review scores to publishers prior to their publication? If so, why?

Have we ever submitted review copy to publishers prior to its publication. If so, why?

Have PR people suggested that specific critics review specific games? Have we complied with their suggestions?


Reviews Vs Criticism
Question 1: What is the object of a review? What are the review writer's obligations?

Question 2: If the purpose of a review is to suggest to consumers how they should spend their time and money, why do we avoid less-granular grading scales such as Buy, Try, or Avoid? Example: Giant Bomb founder and former Gamespot editorial director Jeff Gerstmann told MTV's Multiplayer blog that “'How can I save people money today?' is basically the kind of mentality that I tackle this stuff with.” Under Gerstmann's directorship, Gamespot reviewed games on a hundred-point scale. Is a 9.6 different than a 9.7 when the wisdom of a purchase is what the reviewer wants to communicate?

Question 3: Actual sales rarely correlate with review scores in cases where games are not also heavily hyped and marketed. Increasingly, gamers pre-order games prior to the publication of reviews. Interactive demos allow our audiences to decide for themselves whether or not a game will be worth their dollars. In addition, word of mouth and message board discussions inform our potential audiences' purchasing decisions with an intimacy and directness that we cannot provide. Finally, review aggregation sites such as Metacritic mute the bias of individual reviewers and provide a bigger picture. Do these circumstances suggest that our self-perception is, well, delusional – a throwback to a time when magazines and websites were gaming's gatekeepers? If our audiences believe this, even if we do not, what are they really reading for?

Question 4: Can criticism (concerned with telling our audiences what they're spending time and/or money playing as opposed to whether or not a game is worth spending time and/or money to play) coexist with reviews? Is a competent review also a critique -- as is so often the case where lit, movies, and music are concerned -- or should we separate the two?

Question 5: What can (or should) such criticism take into account? [Note: I don't want to jump the gun on the Evolving Reviews section here, so bear with me if you're wondering why I'm not yet asking certain obvious questions about the shape and challenges of videogame criticism.]

Email snippet:

Perhaps the ethics angle is unavoidable -- at least as it ties into larger concerns about what a review intends to accomplish. Look at the latest bit with Metal Gear, where what all message board posters really reacted to was the irrelevance of the game's install issues. Meanwhile, reviewers agreed to talk around the fact that the game's content is at least fifty percent non-interactive (by most accounts). How can you either review or critique the game under these compromised conditions? This is even bigger than issues outlined in Stephen Totillo's Bill of Rights. Which leads to another concern of mine that might make sense to tackle in the "reviews vs. crit" or "reviews in the age of social media" sections....

Spoiler-phobia leads to a lack of substantiation. Because we won't cite specifics, we're all fluff. N'Gai, you must be familiar with the journalistic notion of a ladder of abstraction -- where concrete, specific details are at the bottom (showing), and the most general or abstract ideas are at the top (telling). The problem is that with reviews we don't reach high enough, nor do we come right down to the bottom. In the mucky middle, we get IGN's reviewer telling us that MGS4 "recast[s] the entire series as nothing less than a re-telling of the Messiah story." As for convincing evidence to argue that the allusion isn't cockamamie? That would be spoiling the story. BioShock and Portal reviews ran into trouble here, too.

I also expect influence and propriety to play a part in the "too harsh/too soft" section. There are real repercussions associated with writing negative reviews. Whether or not we're writing with future exclusives (or even normal, non-exclusive access) immediately on our minds, it's there. In addition, I'm convinced that some inexperienced critics imagine an acceptable range of scores for any given game, even prior to playing. When the press sheet says "budget series", we know it's no holds barred. And finally, we have PR teams whispering in reviews editors' ears that this reviewer is ideal or unsuited to that review assignment.

The sample topics seem suited to allow diversions in any direction I'd want to go with one or two exceptions. Are we interested in talking about craft at all? I'm disturbed by the fact that the enthusiast press hires gamers first and writers/thinkers second. Not once in my career have I sat in on a serious discussion about how we do what we do. Compare this to newspapers with full-time writing coaches.

286 comments:

1 – 200 of 286   Newer›   Newest»
Mitchell Dyer said...

As someone who's relatively new to the review scene and is still learning what works and what doesn't, I really appreciate this, Shawn. Your criticism of criticism on GFW Radio was always something I took to heart since gaming magazines/websites are where I'm hoping to land a career, and having an outspoken anomaly that gives more of a shit about how fun the game is and what constitutes fair criticism than how good the menus look is inspirational.

You raise plenty of excellent questions that I'd like to be able to answer, but the short answer is that I'm simply not experienced enough to deeply delve in to it, but the analysis of a review is something I always keep in mind when you bring it up. This is something I'll constantly refer to from here on out. Thanks.

Mike said...
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Mike said...
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Mike said...

Damn, I wish I had read this before writing my bit about game review scores today.

Shawn Elliot, you will bring amazing work to 2K Boston. But in the meantime, game criticism is losing one of its greatest critics.

This is the kind of thing I want to read about, and people like me are not in the minority. What are in the minority are spaces for the criticism to show itself. I'm convinced that if this is the quality magazines and websites sold, people would buy more, if not the same.

Also, that essay I mentioned... If you find yourself with a spare minute, I'd be honored if you could give it a read. The link's on my blogger page and in your 1up box. It's generally in reference to the N'gai Croal article you posted, and specifically in reference to game review scores.

Brian Damage said...
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Brian Damage said...

Here's another question, though perhaps related more to integrity than ethics. I was arguing this question with my wife the other day about a local newspaper's website but I think it applies to games journalism as well.

Does it take away from the credibility of a news source when you allow the general public to post their comments? Should a journalistic publication like a magazine or website allow their readers' unfiltered opinions to share the same space as the professional writer, or should an editor look them over first? Or should reader comments not be permitted at all to allow the journalist's work to stand on its own?

I figure there's no right or wrong answer to this question. Just throwin' 'er out there.

Rory said...

That was a very thought-provoking read, Shawn. You greatly expanded on some of the things you brought up in your last few GFW podcasts. I think even if some publications were interested in implementing some new ideas, they are in a bit of a standstill with the rest of the gaming journalism industry.

I thought it was very interesting that you brought up reader backlash. One can observe all sorts of vitriol on forums when a reviewer gives a game a score that is far below (or even above) the average score. It is easy to discount the odd opinion because it doesn't fall in line with the rest, but what about it? Did the reviewer see something that no one else saw? Did they have preconceived notions of the genre or series or developer that led them to feel differently about the game? It could be something trivial like hot pocket indigestion prior to sitting down with a game or something quasi-unethical like an up-and-coming publication trying to win the respect of major publishers by fawning over their games. In either case it is unfortunate, but both are certainly plausible. From your experience, does stuff like this ever happen?

Internet culture, not just gaming culture, is obsessed with the rating. Stars, pips, thumbs or points are the life and death of internet content. It is hard to sort articles without some sort of numerical rating (if one wants to do that sort of thing). I think that you can get a lot of solid, valuable criticism from social networks with a focus around gaming, but the problem there is that individual gamers have nowhere near the amount of credibility as the big sites and magazines.

Ian said...

Terrific post. I really wish this would have happened. I'm glad to see the level of journalistic integrity and skill found in politics and news applied to gaming. Too few people in the industry actually feel a passion for what they do. As a long-time GFW listener, here's hoping you continue blogging and podcasting. I'll always look forward to what you have to say.

Kiggle said...

Responding to Question 3 in the Reviews Vs. section:

I'm an enthusiast consumer, not a member of the press in any capacity. I thought this point was particularly interesting because it made me realize, I honestly I can't remember the last time I read a review with the expectation that it would in any way inform my decision to purchase the game or not.

For the most part, I have my game purchases planned out months in advance. For instance, I had preordered all of the games I bought this fall at least 6 months in advance. I rely on preview coverage, gameplay videos, discussions in podcasts from people who have played early builds, and franchise or developer strength, as well as of course my own personal interest. Reviews just don't enter the equation, for better or worse.

Of course I don't preorder and therefore pre-decide every purchase, but in these cases where I am buying games post-release it is invariably due to community buzz or a trusted recommendation from a personal friend. I rely on traditional media only to act as (hopefully) unbiased PR agents, whose job it is to tell me about what is coming down the pipeline well in advance and as the release date nears to separate the wheat from the chaff as coverage for a title becomes increasingly positive or concerned.

I hope that you find this perspective helpful in your continued discussions on this topic.

By the way, I don't know if Chuck Klosterman is a GFW Radio fan or not, but it seems to me his Lester Bangs question was answered mid-2007. Keep up the good work, Shawn.

Michael said...

Great stuff, Shawn. I am glad to see you posting material like this, and I look forward to seeing more of your musings.

Hilit said...

[i]"Example: Giant Bomb founder and former Gamespot editorial director Jeff Gerstmann told MTV's Multiplayer blog that “'How can I save people money today?' is basically the kind of mentality that I tackle this stuff with.” Under Gerstmann's directorship, Gamespot reviewed games on a hundred-point scale. Is a 9.6 different than a 9.7 when the wisdom of a purchase is what the reviewer wants to communicate?"[/i]

Actually Gamespot ran a 100 point scale under Greg Kasavins directorship. After Jeff took over they move to a 20 point scale and Jeff upon starting Giantbomb.com moved it further down to just a 5 points scale. He's always been a fan of less granularity.

Free Press Houston said...

I'm in the same boat as Mitchell Dyer. I've only been reviewing games for 1up.com for about 11 months, and though I reviewed games for two years prior (for a mainstream newspaper), I too struggle with these concerns.

Ditto on Dyer's comments about not being experienced enough to tackle some of your questions (without sounding like a college student writing a mid-term on the cognitive dissonance of Solid Snake blah, blah, blah). But to address one point, Spoiler-phobia, I enjoy the 'ah-ha' moments where you realize what the reviewer was hinting at in the review.

Thomas said...

Concerning your eighth question, Shawn, I think scoring a game using a letter or a number treats many audiences immaturely. Ultimately it becomes narrow and archaic.

Placing a game in a hierarchy of categories is useful for being brief or summarizing,though. Consider something like this; is the game...

A time waster: think sudoku for DS

An activity: Contains the trappings of a game but isn't entirely involving. Many older or classic games could fall under this such as Tetris or Breakout.

Decent:Overall a pleasant experience but doesn't come together well. May excel in a few areas.

Good: Is greater than the sum of its parts.

Great: A good game that despite its flaws may still be good over time.

Aaron M said...

Another thought on game reviews: N'Gai's recent post on innovation vs. minutiae in reviews draws into contrast the dichotomy of whether a score is meant to represent a critical evaluation of the game in total, or as a numerical representation of whether a consumer should buy the game. Should critics not be willing to say "this game is overall not fantastic, but deserves to be played for getting certain interesting things right"?

Glen Haupt said...

Question 2 under the Reviews vs. Criticism section is something that I've always wondered about.

For the most part, I usually know which games I'm going to enjoy and which ones I'm not (as I follow the industry and the games in it quite closely), so I usually make good buying decisions for myself. I'm very much in touch which what I want in the games I play. Reviews are usually more of a way for me to get a different perspectives on the games I play (which is why the reviews I see on 1UP are my favorite, like Rory's review of Stalker Clear Sky as well as your thoughts on MGS4) than a buying guide.

However, sometimes I just don't know if a game is going to be worth my $60 for a purchase or just my $8 for a rental. I've been burned a couple of times in the past buying games that I probably should have just rented, and in that sense the whole 10 point scale doesn't help me one bit.

For instance, I want to credit you for your thoughts on certain aspects of Metal Gear Solid 4. Now, this is a game I knew I was going to buy and love since it was first announced. And I was right. But, to use a specific example, the final boss fight was an incredibly enjoyable and satisfying experience for me. This comes purely from a story-telling standpoint because I have a long history with the franchise. You, on the other hand (that sounds more condescending that I intent it to be), looked at it just for what it was: a crappy boss fight. This difference in perspective from mine made me think twice about what's most important to me in a video game.

Now, as a "review," as it's defined right now, it wouldn't have affected my decision on whether or not to buy the game. So factoring that boss fight into a 10-point scale would prove to be entirely useless. However, as a review rather than a critique as you describe them, it is a nice alternate perspective that changed not only my perspective on MGS4, but on gaming in general.

I think there should be a definite line between a critique and a review. There are times when I want to know whether or not a game is worth my money, and there are times when I want to get a different perspective on a game I already enjoy. And I don't think that both can be done at the same time.

Eric Majkut said...

It's great to have you writing again, Shawn.

James said...

I was wondering when you would finally get around to using this blog. That was a really good read Shawn. You asked a lot of difficult questions, a few I've wondered myself. My only response is I think a lot of what your asking goes back to "human nature", if you believe in such a thing. A lot of the questions you asked could likely be explained through psychology/sociology.

It's too bad you and Jeff Green don't do a blog together like Shoe and Crispin.

N'Gai said...

Shawn, as usual, is far too kind when it comes to assigning blame for why this symposium didn't happen. I was en route to being burnt out right as we were originally putting this together, and despite Shawn's last-ditch efforts to finalize our plans, I dropped the ball. I'm only now emerging from my much-needed hibernation, so I can't say for certain if or when we'll pick the ball up; until then, good on Shawn for posting our homework for those who might be stimulated by it.

@Brian Damage: I think reader comments can benefit blogs and Web sites far more than they hurt them, but it all depends on the quality of the community. (I particularly like reading the post-launch game threads on various sites, because it lets me get a sense of how other people--mostly non-journalists--are experiencing a game as they play through it.) I don't worry about whether or not reader comments affect my credibility positively or negatively. Everyone who reads my work has to judge its credibility for themselves, and they'll do that whether or not I provide the means for them to comment. My work is a monologue, but I publish it to start or continue a dialogue, of which reader comments are an invaluable part.

@Rory, Aaron M, Glen Haupt: I'm fond of saying that the difference between a a reviewer and a critic is that a reviewer tells you whether or not to buy something, while a critic helps you think about it. This, by the way, is not a value judgment. As a writer, I'm fortunate in that my editors don't make me assign scores. As a gamer, I'm fortunate in that I don't have to buy the vast majority of the games that I play. If this were not the case, I would probably about review scores a lot more than I do now. That's why I don't necessarily fault people who do care about them.

I do, however, find myself more and more interested in the kind of game criticism that isolates and dissects specific parts of a title rather than traditional game reviews, which strive to touch on as many facets of a game in relatively equal and often formulaic fashion. That's why I enjoy post-launch critiques, afterthoughts, podcast discussions and message boards, because that's where the bulk of this type of conversation can be found.

Macroe said...

Welcome back Shawn! Now about those Rosarito Lobster tacos... Your fans from Mexico eagerly await your new podcast (youknowyouneedwantit!).

Andrew said...

I've been a big fan of your commentary for a while now and I particularly like how you approach these sorts of questions as a social scientist would.

I know you're well-read, so you've probably read some psychology that is relevant to your questions about reviews and what ultimately determines a reviewer's impression of a game. Social psychologists have known for a long time that we're influenced by all kinds of things that we never notice, or things that we wouldn't expect to have any impact at all on our judgments. I am certain that if someone conducted research specifically addressing game reviews, they would find similarly interesting (and counter-intuitive) results. I'm less certain that anyone would actually benefit from this research, but hey, games are big business now, and someone would probably find a way to use the research to their advantage.

I look forward to reading future posts, and I can't wait to hear more about whatever you're working on. Best of luck!

Glen Haupt said...

@N'Gai: I agree with you 100% on the specific dissection criticism. When I heard that Shawn was going to talk about MGS4 on 1UP Yours, I was so excited because I knew he was going to do just that. I was kind of tired (at that point) of all the praise the game was getting (despite the fact that I love the game), and was glad to see someone come in and say "Hold on a second, there's more to talk about here."

We need more of that post-hype, thoughtful discussion of a game. In face, based on what I said in my previous post, this is really, for the most part, the only type of profession game discussion I'm personally interested in (not to devalue other kinds of game discussion, of course).

Melissa & Jim said...

Good stuff, Shawn.

You do a great job of reminding me why I seldom actually take the time to read through game reviews. It seems like most reviewers don't have a well-defined or disciplined method in how they approach their craft, and the inconsistency in both the quality and tone of the writing comes through.

The question of product review vs. critique is of particular interest to me, because I think this is where many reviewers seem to get tripped up, not being comfortable with or sure of which of the two they are supposed to be approaching the review from.

I suppose another problem is the reviewer's ability to actually come up with meaningful things to say about most products they review. While it is easy to at least conceptualize approaching a product like GTA4 or MGS4 through a variety of lenses or layers of analysis, I would think this depth of critique is unnecessary for something like the Duck Tales Wii review.

Anyways, good stuff.

Shawn Elliott said...

Thank you for reading and replying.

TheK3vin said...

I think the reason reviews continue to use numeric scores, even when their purpose as a reviewer is to suggest what games one should buy and what games they shouldn't is a simple matter every reader having preconceived notions of how the expect the game to be. You have often poked fun at the idea of "Fans of the Genre," but think about this- if your favorite genre of games is RPG, won't you like a mediocre RPG more than somebody who exclusively plays fighting games? The score simply says how likely it is the reader will like the game. If a reviewer gives a game a 10, I think they're saying "It would be very hard not to like this game." Conversely, if they give a game a 1, they're saying "It would nearly impossible to like this game." Buy it or Skip it scale, you're essentially on a binary scale, guaranteeing whether or not the reader will have an enjoyable experience with a game. But that varies from person to person. Isn't it better to simply put a score on it, saying with a 7 that most people who play this game will enjoy it, unless they hate this type of game?

Jin said...

I know its been said regardless, the gaming media is missing out. this is the kind of article I'm actually interested in to read, the fact that I skim through game reviews isn't something I think I am alone in. [Brain Damage] brings up an point, is the fact that the comments are posted, shaping the "monologues"?

i don't expect you to keep podcasting or anything but hope you do. looking forward to your work, been a long time fan and glad you changed from ralphie/whiskey nerd to Shawn Elliot.

Etelmik said...

Still can't let it go, I see. That makes me happy--I like Crispin and Dan's blog too.

Thanks for posting this, Shawn. There aren't enough voices of authority on these issues, so it's nice to see you jump back in.

Kyle Carmitchel said...

(display name changed, my original comment is listed under Kiggle)

When I made the comment about treating most enthusiast media as unbiased PR in some ways, I realize I sounded extremely dismissive. That wasn't my intention.

I was simply trying to illustrate that by consuming so much enthusiast media pre-release, I know my own tastes well enough that before any reviews come out I already know with relative certainty whether or not I will want to purchase, or otherwise play, any given title. As such, reviews offer me almost nothing in the 'help consumers decide how to spend their money' sense. For better or worse, preview coverage already did that for me.

Reviews, though, serve a much more important purpose. The actual decision to buy a game is in many ways the conception stage of the process. Only once we've played the games can we join into any meaningful discussion about them. And this post release discussion is the real deal, so to speak. Be it in journalistic form or otherwise, the conversations we have about games after their release are what really matters.

This is one of the reasons I think 'hardcore' gamers have so enthusiastically adopted the podcast format. The ubiquitous discussion of 'What ya been playin' is exactly what we want to hear, because that's the conversation we're having. As has been often pointed out, traditionally the discussion of a game ends with the review, which is just nuts, because for the consumer that's just the jumping off point.

Anyway I'm not saying anything we don't already know. I guess what I'm getting at is that I wish the psychological and philosophical musings about butterfly wings flapping in brazil affecting review scores by a tenth of a point would just take a back seat to the understanding that reviews should just be the beginning. Keep talking about games as long as the community is out there actually playing the damn things, because that's a discussion we can all have, together. And it's a discussion that can (and should) directly affect future releases in real, meaningful ways.

Hunter said...

What happened to Tumblr

otakudad said...

Dude, heavy stuff for a first post (but don't get me wrong...I dig it)!

If you're interested (which you most certainly should not be, considering it's your blog, and I'm who, again?) my thoughts are that I'm intensely curious about how conditions are for you at 2K Boston... Given your "both sides" of the industry perspective, I'd love to know what you think about the state of the industry, of your workplace (well, as much as you care to divulge), and if there's anything that's caused you to rethink what you previously thought you Knew (with a capital K) when you were simply an enthusiast journalist.

But again, who am I? Why do I have the right to ask such things of your personal time and creative space? No one, I assure you. But I figured you may be interested in what at least one reader (and longtime CGW/GFW reader/podcast listener) thinks. :)

Thanks for twittering it! I'll definitely keep up with your ramblings. :)

Sturek said...

I really hope you get this thing going again, way too many interesting questions still missing. But anyways, I'm glad we get to read stuff that is actually longer than just 140 chars.

In my opinion, there should be a space for proper Criticism, with spoilers and all. My favorite German gaming magazine just went bi-monthly and will probably die soon. I say that it's my favorite, but I haven't bought it for quite a while, bevause I realized, I only read a very small fraction of the articles. As you and many commenters said before me, most gamers already know what games to buy before hand. My main question really is, who needs reviews? Most gamers seem to read them after they already bought and played the game and made up their mind. So, they'd be much better off reading a critique and not a review. A spoilerrific, very concrete evaluation, that is, as Shawn says, not about spending money and time. I would be very interested to read stuff like that.

The way I see it, reviews are not necessary for informed (fanatic ?) gamers, like the ones who comment here. We listen to the podcasts, post on GAF (or any other gaming board) and might even talk to friends about the game, long before the review is out. So, we already know if the game is any good. Add a demo to that and reviews that tell us what to buy, are really a waste of time. I'm not saying reviews ae superfluous per se, I guess there are less fanatic gamers out there, who need reviews. I'm afraid that most of them don't read them though. The average Wii owner probably doesn't even know what you're talking about, when you mention "clipping, tearing and textures flickering" or "bad first person controls, especially when using the Nunchuck".

I do think that there are some great reviews out there. Actually I think that the short "reviews" that you can get from podcasts, are actually very good. They are very subjective, as it's a very obvious "this is how I personally feel about this game"-thing and they cut to the chase of what I, a fanatic, well-informed gamer, want to know. I also like the reviews in Edge magazine. Though their post-mortems are way better and actually some of them (the PN.03 one for example was fantastic, or whatever the GameCube game was called exactly) are the best articles on gaming, that I have ever read.

Anyways, I'm looking forward to reading more about this, though I dislike blogger.com, so I also ask: What about tumblr?

Kevin said...

It's funny that finally you're about to get a serious discussion on game reviews, and it never gets off the ground. And now you're no longer in gaming journalism, go figure.

That was a lot of interesting stuff to think about, but I don't really know what to get from it without any real discussion on it. You should offer them at the next Gamers With Jobs or 1up Yours podcasts that you're on.

Chris said...

I'm with N'Gai. I like the podcast and board discussions more than game reviews.

There's more in-depth analysis. More give and take. Less hype.

It's more interesting.

Shawn Elliott said...

OtakuDad: I intend to answer your question in full on forthcoming podcasts.

Jesse Dylan said...

Interesting stuff. I would still like to see that symposium happen. It's pretty relevant. For what it's worth, I almost always take the side of the critic; I've respected and valued game critics for so many years, and I never escape my desire to perhaps one day be one.

You always brought such awesome insight to 1Up. I loved listening to you on the podcasts. I know you have great things ahead of you, which is what made it easy for me to accept that you were leaving. I really, truly can't wait to see how things go for you, so please keep us updated.

MSUSteve said...

Very interesting stuff Shawn. I'd certainly like to see these topics answered honestly by people in the know, though the questions themselves seem to say a lot about what goes with game reviews. I'll definitely look forward to your forthcoming podcast regarding your 2k Boston experiences.

Troy Goodfellow said...

Damn it, Shawn. My head hurts today and now you are making me think.

A lot of your questions are "score" related which, I think, is kind of an afterthought for most serious reviewers. I know I have never quibbled over much more than a half star one way or the other.

And I think the differences between reviews and criticism can be overplayed.

Ah, hell. Read my blog for a response. This will take too long.

Anderson said...

Rather than comment in depth, I'll just ask that you please make the symposium happen.

Like, now would be fine.

Jeff said...

Great read Shawn, lot's of interesting questions and thoughts brought up.
I would love to hear this podcast some day.

Shawn Elliott said...

I'm working on making this thing happen now.

Dan said...

Make it happen!

Max said...

You attribute the 100 point scale to Gerstmann, yet his last major move at Gamespot was simplifying it to the same scale EGM always used. He was always outspoken that he wanted simpler scales.

Now at Giant Bomb they use a 5 point scale.

Dank said...

Great to see you putting some more thoughts out in the open Shawn. My only advice going forward is to make look back at the 1upfm podcast you did with Jonathan Blow. It was the single most interesting podcast I've ever heard and the more stuff like that the better. Hope to see some sort of 2k Boston podcast come together. (How do you like Massachusetts by the way, I'm in concord.)

ThePumKinMan said...

Shawn, I feel like I shouldn't read reviews or judge a game by what I have read. Because every time I do, I'll either dismiss it or come into it negatively, when I dismiss games, I just say "oh that's really dumb, I'm not gonna play that" or something like that. I'll try the game much later to find that it's really fun and I wish that I had played it when it was relevant.

or, when I go into a game with a negative outlook I tend to point out all the bad things that got pin-pointed in reviews, and I find out that they aren't really that big of a deal. I'm not saying that every game is fun, or good, I mean there is crap out there.

If I follow a games development process from the first press release to the games release, from a game company I admire, I tend to ignore the bad stuff I hear about it, and I'm hardly ever disappointed.

But if I check out a game because it was highly praised in reviews, the things it was praised for don't seem to out shine the negative things that I find in the game myself. Well, this isn't always true either, but it does happen quite often.

I like hearing about games, and what the game does, and I like hearing how ambitious things work out. The 1up Show does this really good I think. But I would really like to see more of the way The 1up Show does things, and even more interviews, and afterthoughts of games. That would make my experience with game press better.

-your respecting fan
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This is somewhat off-topic, as your post here is about institutional reviews rather than criticism, but since so many of your points here turn on the relationship of art to the business side of the industry I was reminded of Dave Hickey's book "Air Guitar."

It is a very, very good book. I bought of copy of River of Doubt for my pops when he was laid up in the hospital, and he really liked it. So consider this turnabout.

Don't sleep.

James said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
James said...

This is going to be talked about without me having to mention(if it hasn't already) but it's late and I'm bored so I'll offer it anyway:

Should a selected reviewers' taste in games or franchises correspond with what they're reviewing?

Is it fair for developers to have their game reviewed by a publication or website with a "less suitable" reviewer than another? At the same time is it fair for the reader to have a reviewer on either side of the fence(Favored genre, franchise/unfavored genre, franchise)?

and the usual:

Aren't scores useless? A reviewer could have an identical opinion on a game with another, but offer up different scores. Stars and letter grades are just good for message board chaos.

What is a reviewers actual job to inform the reader about? What is the difference in opinion between writers who want to talk about tweaking graphics on level one and the writers who want to talk about the experience?

Chris said...

This is great stuff. I hope you find a way to revive this project. Thanks for asking the tough questions; now I only hope you ask them of specific people.

Omari Akil said...

I wrote two slightly angry blogs about this topic recently. I am glad to see that most of the questions I raised are (in some form or fashion) included in your post. Sure am glad I'm not a total dummy...

Joril said...

Old habits die hard, Shawn. Good.

What will become of all these intentions? I'm sure reviewers will learn of it. But the consumer review will not go away. But maybe this will provoke some into going into the subjects of the game a bit further.
Do you think we'll see results any time soon?
Now there seem to be a lot more "blog reviewers" around then I usually noticed before. The same goes for the more "professional reviewers" I'm seeing page long reviews in newspapers aswell. Even articles linking them to current events. Like when Frontlines: Fuel Of War was released, the reviewer saw fit to bring the economic situation into the picture. The inspiration for the game was likely found in the real world anyway. I think that's fine. I think reviews are getting better.

This whole new direction you want to take game reviewing/critiqing in reminds me of how art criticism evolved.
It seems that games are starting to mature to a level where we can dispense with the bullet points and the technology showpieces, and start looking to something of higher value.
It seems we will be able to start considering games as art and comment on them as such.
Although we'll have to dump a lot of games in the "non-art" category, some gems will be remembered as classics, maybe even to something like the classical art pieces, and how some hallmarks and masterpieces stand out above the crowd.
Elitism will come luring around the corner too... and people might dismiss it for being just that.

Heh, maybe you could be the new Clement Greenberg of gaming ;)

On a side note. Though I am no reviewer, when I talk about, for instance, a movie. I often say that the movie has an interesting "setting" but a lousy story. The setting or location (or even universe) might be a bit of a redeming factor if it comes to thought provocing discussions.
Off the top of my head, the Sixth Day might get people talking about cloning animals or humans. But, that doesn't mean it is a very good movie.
Maybe that could go for, let say, Bioshock aswell (being a great game it might be a poor comparison)
It has an interesting setting. Though the way the story was told nor the gunplay in the game were the best I had ever seen. That doesn't stand in the way of the discussions the concept or the twist might provoke.

That said, if a consumer review puts a score on the game (or movie for that matter) it propably won't take into consideration the way the game might be interesting in another way then it's gameplay/quality/producion values. And it propably shouldn't, because people will be more interested in it's entertainment value rather then it's filosophical value. The latter can't really be forced onto the player.

I get the feeling I'm deviating a bit to much here. So I'm stopping this train of thought here.

Shawn Elliott said...

Boston Phoenix critic Mitch Krpata responds: http://insultswordfighting.blogspot.com/

Shawn Elliott said...

Troy Goodfellow at Flash of Steel responds: http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2008/12/01/reviewing-criticizing-and-games-media/#more-1112

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@Shawn - Let me be among the masses to say that its good to hear from you again in a public forum. While I am nowhere near qualified to respond to your questions, I believe hearing the answers from various gaming journalists out there would make for a very interesting article/podcast. I'll join in with saying I hope you can make this happen soon.

@N'Gai - Your thoughts on game critics vs. game reviews is another spot-on thought in my book. It's also great to hear that you think so highly of bloggers, comments and messageboards. It gives hope to a new blogger like myself who feeds off of any comments I can get.

Shawn Elliott said...

Michael Walbridge responds:

http://etelmik.blogspot.com/2008/12/shawn-elliotts-questions.html

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You're going to do great at 2K Boston, but, man, Shawn, you could also do great at the LA Times or some such.

You know you're going to miss the thrill of reporting. They all do. :)

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Someone needs to give Robert Ashley a prize. His comments about assigning scores based on gut rather than pro/con lists was right on and this comment below hit the ball out of the park:


I wouldn't want to separate "art" from game mechanics and interactive feel. Atmosphere and storytelling have been a fixation for games critics lately, but the connection between the player and the machine—the mysteriously engrossing feeling that makes people scrunch their faces up and open their mouths like zombies—is the real "art" of gaming.

PolyBulman said...

Good stuff guys. An interesting read.

On a totally random note...Shawn, a long ways back you mentioned you were fond of the 'godzilla-like' sound effect that plays when entering V.A.T.S. in Fallout 3. An interesting bit of trivia: The sound effect actually comes from the first two fallout games. It's the sound of the metal 'door' opening up in the HUD that unveils the combat options available to the player.

See: Way bottom right of the hud, with the yellow/black stripes.

http://www.application-systems.de/fallout2/Resources/fallout2_05.jpg

Kind of funny how they kept the sound effect in. It really brings me back. :)

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I don't want to copy and paste what I've said elsewhere, but I do want to thank you Shawn for putting all of this together.

I think in general I crave meaningful dialogue about the things that I love and you certainly don't disappoint, though I wish I could say the same for most reviews in general.

We need more of this kind of open discussion that is honest, introspective, and not pretentious.

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